tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post3370681363268162911..comments2023-10-20T21:52:36.752+05:30Comments on Cross Connections: Sartre was born today...was? is?Farzana Verseyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06891229615361937135noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-5831297794303625372013-07-10T18:03:11.308+05:302013-07-10T18:03:11.308+05:30Thank you, Zeemax. Hopefully, you're just jog...Thank you, Zeemax. Hopefully, you're just jogging or trying to catch an Ambassador taxi and not on a flight with Bolivian President Evo Morales?<br /><br />It seems one cannot be too certain these days. :)<br /><br />M.mstaabnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-56633236829018961772013-07-09T19:58:03.415+05:302013-07-09T19:58:03.415+05:30Mark,
"Cheen-o-Arab hamara, HindustaN hamar...Mark, <br /><br />"Cheen-o-Arab hamara, HindustaN hamara; Muslim haiN hum watan hai, sara jehaN hamara" roughly translates, layman style,into: "China and Arabia are ours, India is ours; Because we're Muslims, the whole world is ours" :)<br /><br />This is on the run. I'll comment later on yours and Al's very intuitive posts.<br /><br />RgdsZeemaxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-64708982196423761532013-07-09T10:00:37.897+05:302013-07-09T10:00:37.897+05:30Zeemax,
If I may, it struck me that Al's emph...Zeemax,<br /><br />If I may, it struck me that Al's emphasis may have been on “driven;” whereas yours is on a necessary moral “imperative.” Al's “driven,” to me, expresses some coercion in that “constructive purpose regardless of the answers to such questions;” whereas you (and/or Iqbal) suggest life as devoid of constructive purpose save for the “moral imperative” (from wherever it may issue forth – religion, apparently, for Iqbal). Would it be safe to say Iqbal was rather “drawn” to that moral imperative (as one might in the throes of existential angst)? While there may not be coercion in religion any longer (save, perhaps, for certain family-imposed distresses), can there be coercion in moral imperatives?<br /><br />>>This was also the problem with Iqbal. Remember he said "Cheen-o-Arab hamara, HindustaN hamara; Muslim haiN hum watan hai, sara jehaN hamara"?<<<br /><br />No, I didn't know that. In that google translate seems somewhat taxed of late, might I prevail upon you for a translation? :)<br /><br />>>If life has no meaning and in fact is the Myth of Sysiphus, then some brilliant people try to give it meaning by trying to become an Übermensch.<< <br /><br />Which these “brilliant people try to give it meaning” for whom? Give life meaning for himself or herself? Give life meaning for those similarly afflicted as are/were they? Presumably the aspiring Übermensch seeks to be a worthy expression in the flesh of his/her chosen moral imperatives? Or is it more an inner-experience – kinda like the proverbial internal-jihad? <br /><br />Mark<br /><br />Ps. I've just downloaded a .pdf containing Iqbal's 1908 doctoral thesis, <em>The Development of Metaphysics in Persia.</em> It looks interesting, thanks. :)mstaabnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-10799442614777878302013-07-09T04:09:50.264+05:302013-07-09T04:09:50.264+05:30zeemax:"The answer is important because one m...zeemax:"The answer is important because one man's food is another man's poison. Unless there's a moral imperative, deeply seated and ingrained, there can be no constructive purpose."<br /><br />"moral imperative" is all relative and contextual, and the level of "being ingrained" may actually be counter productive. There are plenty of real world examples where such "ingrained thinking" is actually the cause for destructive behavior. It is important to realize that we are the product of our environment which varies widely across the planet, so "morality" is relative, and "deeply ingrained morality" in different groups of people can clash with each other in destructive ways. "morality" usually depends on defining some "purpose" to life and the lays down the preconditions for improving the conditions required for furthering that purpose, and call it "morality". It all goes downhill, the moment people with different ideas of reality start to strongly believe their worldview more correct than that of others...sort of the reason why religion and morality derived from it usually causes more problems than it solves.<br /><br />"I mentioned 'Übermensch' of Nietzsche somewhere above. That was the inspiration of Adolf Hitler's manic belief of the Arian people's superiority above all others. "<br /><br />I think it is a little futile to try and understand normal people from the standpoint of a psychopath with extreme views. Hitler's and the Nazi view of eugenics based on a pretty stupid understanding of genetics, all of which has been trashed as utter nonsense by later research.<br /><br />This Ubermensch concept is just about as delusional as beliving in a god -- people who believe the concept of the superiority of one being or one person or race usually do not comprehend the vastness and complexity of the universe, and start off with a false premise. As you probably know, once your premise is false,one can justify any nonsense with a set of false premises, which is what usually happens. To really comprehend the vastness of the universe, it is instructive to look at the output of the Hubble telescope and realize that the milky way is one of a trillion galaxies, each with a billion stars or more. <br /><br />"Above's the problem with existentialism. FV is right on the dot when she writes “Life has no meaning the moment you lose the illusion of being eternal". "<br /><br />Not quite. Life has the meaning you choose to give to it -- the problem usually is that it is a wide and complex reality every humans chooses to give a different meaning to it, based on the context in their heads, and lets that drive their behavior. Life actually has no meaning -- this planet will not exist in a billion years, and all of human development itself is about as relevant as mold on a piece of bread, albeit in a million year timeframe. Our limited presence on the planet for a few decades is hardly enough time to even comprehend reality, let alone understand the "imperative" if there is one. So we all fit in our own little realities and keep ourselves amused for the most part, or so it seems to me.<br /><br />cheers,<br />-AlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-25083349901552398812013-07-09T00:05:49.037+05:302013-07-09T00:05:49.037+05:30Al,
" it doesn't really matter what one ...Al,<br /><br /><i>" it doesn't really matter what one comes up with as the answer, as it turns out. A person's actions and thoughts can be driven to constructive purpose regardless of the answers to such questions.<br />"</i><br /><br />The answer is important because one man's food is another man's poison. Unless there's a moral imperative, deeply seated and ingrained, there can be no constructive purpose.<br /><br />I mentioned 'Übermensch' of Nietzsche somewhere above. That was the inspiration of Adolf Hitler's manic belief of the Arian people's superiority above all others. <br /><br />This was also the problem with Iqbal. Remember he said "Cheen-o-Arab hamara, HindustaN hamara; Muslim haiN hum watan hai, sara jehaN hamara"? In his early days, he believed roughly the same about Muslims as Hitler did of the Arians, but mellowed down later in life and found the moral imperative in religion. That led him to write the lectures of 'The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam'. That is all Sufiism!<br /><br />Above's the problem with existentialism. FV is right on the dot when she writes “Life has no meaning the moment you lose the illusion of being eternal". If life has no meaning and in fact is the Myth of Sysiphus, then some brilliant people try to give it meaning by trying to become an Übermensch.<br /><br />RgdsZeemaxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-12504420486464268352013-07-07T19:36:36.288+05:302013-07-07T19:36:36.288+05:30Zeemax:" the bubble is both an assertion of l...Zeemax:" the bubble is both an assertion of life as well as an intimation of nothingness, and this nothingness is God into which life merges after a short distinct identity of its own - just as a bubble merges with the "wasteland" of existence."<br /><br />Zeemax, at the atomic and subatomic level, everything just reorganizes/constitutes to form different lifeforms over time - most people are probably made of the some atoms and subatomic particles that constituted other beings. Seems to be a stretch to believe this reorganization is managed by some entity (god) but it doesn't really matter what one comes up with as the answer, as it turns out. A person's actions and thoughts can be driven to constructive purpose regardless of the answers to such questions.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-24469707415217643812013-07-07T19:16:54.123+05:302013-07-07T19:16:54.123+05:30"Really? Maybe it is. But noone has come back..."Really? Maybe it is. But noone has come back to tell us whether it is or it is not!<br /><br />But do consider the above thoughts."<br /><br />Zeemax, unlikely that such thoughts can be validated one way or another, except internally -- response was after due consideration. :)<br /><br />-AlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-10574342570072239062013-07-06T15:12:30.846+05:302013-07-06T15:12:30.846+05:30Correction:
(Life will continue to go on; We won&...<br /><br />Correction:<br /><br />(Life will continue to go on; We won't be there, but someone just like us will!)<br /><br />The extra 'to' wasn't meant to be there.Zeemaxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-43703410615704015052013-07-06T15:03:41.394+05:302013-07-06T15:03:41.394+05:30FV,
"shaayad ke zamii.N hai wo kisii aur jah...FV,<br /><br />"shaayad ke zamii.N hai wo kisii aur jahaa.N kii <br />tuu jisako samajhataa hai falak apane jahaa.N kaa" (Iqbal)<br /><br />Exactly. This has relevance to my comment about the possible parallel universes of Quantum Mechanics.<br /><br />But then again, if you start peeling an onion, what do you get in the end? Nothing! And that's the only answer ...Zeemaxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-46724872114047224702013-07-06T13:35:32.640+05:302013-07-06T13:35:32.640+05:30Anonymous,
"Zeemax, this is exactly the manu...Anonymous,<br /><br />"Zeemax, this is exactly the manufactured purpose ...".<br /><br />Really? Maybe it is. But noone has come back to tell us whether it is or it is not!<br /><br />But do consider the above thoughts.<br /><br />Zeemaxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-6370098378189637322013-07-06T13:29:07.946+05:302013-07-06T13:29:07.946+05:30FV,
Your comment re the bubble and the ocean of I...FV,<br /><br />Your comment re the bubble and the ocean of Iqbal: <i>This is fatalism. Is the bubble an assertion of life or intimation of nothingness?</i><br /><br />This is really getting into the deep end without a life jacket! This, in my interpretation of Iqbal, is saying life <b>IS</b> nothingness itself; and the bubble is both an assertion of life as well as an intimation of nothingness, and this nothingness is God into which life merges after a short distinct identity of its own - just as a bubble merges with the "wasteland" of existence.<br /><br />Through these couplets, Iqbal states what in his view life and God are all about. <br /><br />Above interpretation is reinforced by another couplet, where he advises on what to do with such an existence? In his description of his Mard-e-Momin, a concept he developed from 'Übermensch' of Nietzsche, he states amongst this person's qualities:<br /><br />"Phhonk daley yeh zameen-o-asmaan musta'ar; Aur khakistar sey aap apna jehan paida karey"<br /><br />(<i>Burns to the ground these borrowed earths and heavens; and builds his own universe from the ashes</i>). <br /><br />You might reconsider the comment that it is fatalism ...<br /><br />He was called a Kafir because of verses like these, and earned many Fatwas against him for challenging God and denying a Hell and a Heaven in an afterlife!.<br /><br />In my own personal view, life has no purpose but to lend beauty to a much larger identity during its lifespan, just as any living tissue in our bodies completes its respective lifespan, some long and some short, and then dies off one by one till we die. Does a single human hair have an afterlife? I guess not. It merely disappears and makes way for the new. This view is somewhat in line with Iqbal's description of existence.<br /><br />To sum up, another couplet NOT from Iqbal :)<br /><br />"Dayem abad rahey gi dunya; Hum na hon gey, koi hym sa hoga".<br /><br />(<i>Life will continue to go on; We won't be there, but someone just like to us will!</i>)<br /><br />I think Quantum Physics' parallel universes theory with complete randomness at its very core may prove correct someday. But that's another subject.<br /><br />CheersZeemaxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-16443559286556142272013-07-03T21:56:12.013+05:302013-07-03T21:56:12.013+05:30Hi Farzana,
>>Indeed, it is possible that e...Hi Farzana,<br /><br />>>Indeed, it is possible that existential questions arose in a cause-effect sense to Satre's wartime activity and observations. But, then, does it happen with others?<<<br /><br />I'm guessing by “others” you're referring to those experiencing some similar physical or psychical assault thoroughly upending of their sensibilities? Sure. I'd even go so far as to suggest that, even as a “practical” joke, the internal storm is real enough for the subject of such a lark. Perhaps the relief at having survived (or the relief that their turmoil had “only” been mischievously manufactured) is sufficient for the recovery of some . . .<br /><br />>>There is, no doubt, psychological damage and emotional wear-and-tear. But, to take and make it into a philosophical 'way of life' probably needs thinking beyond the emotion. A sort of detachment from the source.<<<br /><br />Yes. With reference to your earlier “the exotic *becoming* archaic and dull,” I can also appreciate your distinction, “A *sort of* detachment from the source.” :)<br /><br />Markmstaabnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-7697124833118183002013-07-03T01:15:15.866+05:302013-07-03T01:15:15.866+05:30Al:
{After all, if our whole existence is pointle...<br />Al:<br /><br />{After all, if our whole existence is pointless, then killing ourselves should not make a difference, and indeed it does not. The world moves on, the universe doesn't blink.}<br /><br />A death wish is not about being pointless, but of being aware of the meaning of one's existence. It is detachment from the world that sharpens the senses and mind, so whether the world blinks or goes blind, it won't register. No, not even by wearing aviators! <br /><br />PS: Re Sir Lungi, alas and alack, I cannot say what the Queen might have :-)FVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-3752180645757219092013-07-03T01:12:51.136+05:302013-07-03T01:12:51.136+05:30Zeemax:
It is interesting that you use the Iqbal ...<br />Zeemax:<br /><br />It is interesting that you use the Iqbal quote to posit against Existentialism. <br /><br />{"If you seek to know the reality of life, ask the mountain miner; Life is digging for a stream of milk from a heavy stone with nothing but a chisel"}<br /><br />Let me quote Camus in The Myth of Sisyphus...<br /><br />“There is scarcely any passion without struggle.” <br /><br />However, the Existentialist would consider the stone as a dam. The milk needs to be channelised. <br /><br />Your next Iqbal quote in response to Sartre on eternity:<br /><br />{"From the vast ocean of existance, you have risen like no more than a bubble; <br />In this great wasteland, your life is nothing but a test for beyond"}<br /><br />This is fatalism. Is the bubble an assertion of life or intimation of nothingness? <br /><br />I'd think Camus conveys this:<br /><br />“A man devoid of hope and conscious of being so has ceased to belong to the future.” <br /><br />The future is more real than the beyond. Seeking as self-examination is not always about god, although it is possible to imagine of god as being in the details - god-like demeanour, creator empowerment. <br /><br />Ultimately, it amounts to looking for what is not there:<br /><br />"shaayad ke zamii.N hai wo kisii aur jahaa.N kii <br />tuu jisako samajhataa hai falak apane jahaa.N kaa" (Iqbal)<br /><br />PS: Good you brought in this dimension here. FVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-59526934798040641562013-07-03T01:11:49.556+05:302013-07-03T01:11:49.556+05:30Mark:
{Might there have been some necessary “expe...Mark:<br /><br />{Might there have been some necessary “expedient,” as they say, involving the life and limb of civilians, say, feeding his later, existentialist angst? Well, perhaps. I'm only illustrating (for some an antidote for ennui, lol) one of many approaches one can take in . . . well, “surveying” Existentialism. Another is that he (and/or Simone, perhaps) was having certain philosophers on – giving them a bit of a “send-up,” as they say.}<br /><br />Indeed, it is possible that existential questions arose in a cause-effect sense to Satre's wartime activity and observations. But, then, does it happen with others? There is, no doubt, psychological damage and emotional wear-and-tear. But, to take and make it into a philosophical 'way of life' probably needs thinking beyond the emotion. A sort of detachment from the source. <br /><br />Re he and Simone, ah well, they were the toast of town, and perhaps used Existentialism in ways to live it up, taking philosophy outside the realm of thesis. It also suited their more immediate needs :-)<br />FVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-43689086748476486112013-07-02T01:15:33.760+05:302013-07-02T01:15:33.760+05:30Mark, Al, Zeemax...how interesting! Thank you for ...Mark, Al, Zeemax...how interesting! Thank you for new thoughts. Now give me some time :-) FVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-17067218951225107972013-06-30T19:16:31.100+05:302013-06-30T19:16:31.100+05:30" we're left with the question, what'..." we're left with the question, what's different, the man (or woman) or the nature of their respective service?"<br /><br />mstaab, FV, <br /><br />That is a new perspective about the "high" of being involved leading to a feeling of pointlessness, when one is no longer part of some bigger "plot". I have never been through such experiences to say for sure, but it would seem like it could leave a person feeling directionless once all of the purpose of every day is suddenly lost, when the war is over and the excitement of everyday living is lost in a relatively risk-free environment of peace. But I guess Sartre compensated for all of this by writing it all down :)<br /><br />-AlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-2214178284886863792013-06-30T19:07:06.278+05:302013-06-30T19:07:06.278+05:30"From the vast ocean of existance, you have r..."From the vast ocean of existance, you have risen like no more than a bubble; <br />In this great wasteland, your life is nothing but a test for beyond"<br /><br />So, existantialism + God is what life is all about. FV, point to ponder :)"<br /><br />Zeemax, this is exactly the manufactured purpose that was mentioned earlier -- given the vastness of the universe, and the obvious irrelevance of the entire human race to the universe in general, "God" and "afterlife" or any such fantasy is the faked purpose to drive people to do things. After all, if our whole existence is pointless, then killing ourselves should not make a difference, and indeed it does not. The world moves on, the universe doesn't blink. So one could just as well believe any fantastical nonsense to justify our own existence and drive ourselves to do useful things. "God" is not the only answer unless one has limited imagination.<br />-AlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-84473763273410039442013-06-30T17:29:30.718+05:302013-06-30T17:29:30.718+05:30Above was in response to this:
There is another ...Above was in response to this:<br /><br /><i> There is another quote I’d like to examine:<br /><br /> “Life has no meaning the moment you lose the illusion of being eternal.”</i><br /><br />Do examine this in the light of what Iqbal said!Zeemaxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-77738196010465768012013-06-30T13:41:28.593+05:302013-06-30T13:41:28.593+05:30"Zindagani Ki Haqiqat Kohkun Ke Dil Se Pooch
..."Zindagani Ki Haqiqat Kohkun Ke Dil Se Pooch<br />Jooye Sheer-O-Teesha-O-Sang-E-Garan Hai Zindagi"<br /><br /> <i>(If you seek to know the reality of life, ask the mountain miner; Life is digging for a stream of milk from a heavy stone with nothing but a chisel) </i><br /><br />This is existentialism of Allama Iqbal. Isn't that the same as the Myth of Sisyphus of Albert Camus? But Iqbal injects God in existentialism with this from the same poem:<br /><br />"Kulzum-e-hasti sey ubhra hai tu manind-e-hubab;<br />Iss ziaN khaney meiN tera imtihaN hai zindagi"<br /><br /><i>From the vast ocean of existance, you have risen like no more than a bubble; <br />In this great wasteland, your life is nothing but a test for beyond"</i><br /><br />So, existantialism + God is what life is all about. FV, point to ponder :)Zeemaxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-6084702313103201202013-06-30T05:35:01.423+05:302013-06-30T05:35:01.423+05:30Hi Farzana, AI,
I want to say it was the fish. :...Hi Farzana, AI,<br /><br />I want to say it was the fish. :)<br /><br />Apparently Sartre served in the French military at the outset of WWII, was captured, later escaped back to France, continuing his fight in resistance against the German occupation. On the one hand, given these life experiences – becoming accustomed to adrenaline highs, as you note – it's not much of a leap to suppose he kept chasing those highs, one way or another, in the years following. On the other hand, we hear of others seeming immune to the horror of their wartime experience, so we're left with the question, what's different, the man (or woman) or the nature of their respective service? Sartre fought – presumably “conventionally,” initially. Later, after his purported escape from the Germans, he likely fought quite “unconventionally,” i.e. as in some manner saboteur of the German war effort. Might there have been some necessary “expedient,” as they say, involving the life and limb of civilians, say, feeding his later, existentialist angst? Well, perhaps. I'm only illustrating (for some an antidote for ennui, lol) one of many approaches one can take in . . . well, “surveying” Existentialism. Another is that he (and/or Simone, perhaps) was having certain philosophers on – giving them a bit of a “send-up,” as they say . . .<br /><br />Thanks for the kind sentiments for my recovery. :)<br /><br />Mark mstaabnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-60461353091236436162013-06-30T01:34:41.331+05:302013-06-30T01:34:41.331+05:30FV"Wonder whether Sir Lungi would talk about ...FV"Wonder whether Sir Lungi would talk about dirty linen :) "<br /><br />Good question, FV. :) But of course, being the perfect gentlelungi that Sir Lungi is, when in a laundry basket, Sir Lungi would make the "other" the topic of the conversation instead of self. Such is the demeanor of good breeding...errr.. I mean, good weaving. <br /><br />-AlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-38507624848163217152013-06-28T23:18:21.907+05:302013-06-28T23:18:21.907+05:30Mark:
Although aware of oxygen deprivation, peopl...Mark:<br /><br />Although aware of oxygen deprivation, people still strive to reach heights!<br /><br />Get well soon...<br /><br />---<br /><br />Al:<br /><br />Wonder whether Sir Lungi would talk about dirty linen :)FVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-90430280619292681372013-06-28T06:28:27.017+05:302013-06-28T06:28:27.017+05:30mstaab, Haha. nice toon that. Reminds me of a too...mstaab, Haha. nice toon that. Reminds me of a toon that went:<br /><br />A: "There is a woman giving birth to a child somewhere on this planet every 8 minutes"<br /><br />B: "We need to find out who she is and stop her"<br /><br />-AlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16761020.post-31047009429237061062013-06-28T06:25:43.075+05:302013-06-28T06:25:43.075+05:30"I suffer from these bouts of ennui and self-..."I suffer from these bouts of ennui and self-absorption when I can't quite respond to my own work. "<br /><br />FV, I resemble that remark.<br /><br />"And the lungi shall be knighted in good time! "<br /><br />I shall respectfully address it as Sir Lungi de Checker thereafter and give it a special place in the laundry basket.<br /><br />-AlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com